Showing posts with label C-130. Show all posts
Showing posts with label C-130. Show all posts

Thursday, June 5, 2008

CHACONAS: AN INTOLERABLE INTERPRETATION

CHACONAS: AN INTOLERABLE INTERPRETATION
Adam Larson / Caustic Logic
The Frustrating Fraud
June 4 2008
update 6/9 12pm


At the Loose Change Forum recently CIT witness Steve Chaconas, as presented in The Pentagon Flyover, came up again. [interview runs 17:34-35:00 in the video] Chaconas was a charter boat captain out fishing with others on 9/11, near a sewage treatment plant on the Potomac a few miles south of the capitol. CIT feel “Steve’s account alone is enough to prove a military deception” by having a plane fly across the river east-to-west, bank right and apparently fly into the Pentagon off in the distance. Critical forum member Bret08 pointed out that “Chiconas [sic] is a human being giving his judgement and perceptions. He is not infallible,” and asked his fellow members “Are we even sure that the plane he saw was AA77/decoy?” He’s exactly right to wonder about this, if not terribly articulate about it. He was of course hit with slings and arrows for his criticism. CIT ally Bitterman snapped back:

“Hey Bret! WTF! What is wrong with you? Wait, wait......don't tell me.....I already know what you do. It pisses me off. […] in APRIL, you asked this SAME QUESTION. Remember when we trounced you because you still didn't get it, and we informed you that Steve CAN tell the difference between a turbo prop and a jet airliner?!?!?!

4 engine turbo prop vs. a 2 engine jet. AGAIN, DO NOT ASK THIS QUESTION AGAIN. Your motives are obvious to me, but I have to play by the rules. So, for the last time....here is the answer to your STUPID question. [provides the quote I’ll post below] So? WTF man. WHY are you here? Who are you? Why are you important? How old are you? You're credible how? […] If this is ALL you bring to the table, then STFU.”


At this point the moderators stepped in. “JFK” is no Jack Kennedy – he’s also a moderator at plane-pod-promoting letsrollforum and seems to think he can make any tripe look noble with his pensive presidential avatar and management of ideological differences in the name of "9/11 Truth." In response to Bitterman’s barely-provoked tirade, JFK said “Brett is tolerated here simply in case if we overlook something.... Other than that I ignore him for the most part.” Further denunciations came unmoderated from Avenger not Aldo, and Domenick DiMaggio not CIT.

I’d guess that Brett08 is tolerated there because he is timid and not studied on the details, and because they need some on-site opposition. I know I wouldn’t be tolerated for a minute in the current climate (I’m “Deleted User” there, voluntarily, but it’s devolved since then). I know to point out that all we have for proof of the decoy white airliner thing crossing the river is this ONE witness who saw the final bank and dive preceded by a crossing of the river by what he feels is one and the same plane.

The pivotal part is where he saw it crossing close to him, considering the C-130 flown by Lt Col Steve O’Brien that followed after 77 to investigate the crash site crossed the river roughly when and exactly where Chaconas’ plane crossed. It has been reasonably proposed by Brett and myself and others that he actually saw the C-130 and just thought it was an airliner.

I’m not bothering now with a full deconstruction, but my opinion on Chaconas is that he’s neither correct nor 100% honest in his account, and neither is he outright lying, and almost certainly not any kind of “disinfo agent.” Consider this graphic: A perfectly honest and unbiased observer might connect these two maneuvers with a deduced bank, considering the proximity of the two path in time and space. Add in his apparent desire to boost the mystery and ‘unanswered questions’ surrounding 9/11 [27:00 in the video], a sentiment similar to that of Bob Pugh [video here, 30:30 on] and such deduction seems entirely too likely to be ignored.

Consider also his curious vagueness on characteristics of ‘the plane’ as it passed nearest to him:
Ranke: “Can you describe the jet for us? Did you notice how many engines it had?”
Chaconas: "I don’t recall anything specific about the airplane, and again, it was far enough away to where we, you know to me, it looked like a commercial airliner…”
Ranke: “How about the color though?”
Chaconas: “Nothing specific about it at all.” [25:05]

This raises a question for CIT. Guys, of all the witnesses you’ve interviewed, how many have flat refused to specify the color when asked? And why is it this one?

In closing, I’ll remind the reader that no other witnesses in the area have yet been found to corroborate this ONE apparent river-crossing by the decoy. And this pivotal and lonely account is based on a few words, like the hard point Bitterman slapped Bret08 with to certify it was one plane, and that an airliner. Carefully re-read this important passage: “and again, it was far enough away to where we, you know to me, it looked like a commercial airliner…” That’s a lot of qualifiers. It was far enough away that to me it LOOKED LIKE an airliner. So it was an airliner! The logical extension of this is that if it were closer, it might look to him or to anyone less like one and, perhaps, more like a C-130. The qualifiers indicate that somewhere in that brain Chaconas knows this.

ETA: And the fact that CIT passed up the chance to show him their ever-present E4B and C130 photos [nowhere in the video] for comparison indicates that they knew it too.

ETA: There will be no Chaconas update posts, and after this ETA no more additions to the post body, since Ranke said "that's it?" in the comments. I don't want to change the context on him. I will include additional marks against their literal interpretation in the growing comments section below.

Sunday, March 2, 2008

NEW CIT SCI-FI MOCKUMENTARY RELEASED

THE PENTAGON FLYOVER: ANNOUNCEMENT OF RELEASE AND PARTIAL REVIEW
The Frustrating Fraud
February 26 2008 12:30 am
updated 2/26 5pm


The long-awaited feature-length follow-up to The PantaCon is now released. Earlier today Craig Ranke of Citizen Investigation Team announced the release of The Pentagon Flyover - How They Pulled It Off at Above Top Secret.com 911 forum.
Additional discussion:
Loose Change Forum
Pilots for 911 Truth forum
CIT Forum
Signs of the Times Forum

One hour and forty minutes. More solid evidence proving a deception. Here it is, with a still screen of Koeppel's map based on a few crumbs of error that happens to resemble the final path they're now proposing based on half-a-loaf of error:

Google Video link
I’ve just been skimming through and in fact I’m seeing enough bullshit already it’s making me tired to think of a full debunking, even though I’ve already done most of the work in recent discussions. Regading their findings of the C-130 pilot’s account, their once-rotated map is shown both corrected [9:45] and still rotated [41:40] and they’re still calling the north part of the 'official' outbound flight not far enough north, his view of the mall not beautiful enough by radar, and calling the outbound heading of 255 degrees ‘southwest’ (225°) and fatally contradictory to his description of ‘west’ (270°).

They told me I was ‘dead wrong’ in my guess at their full flight path:

But watching what they did [10:20-13:00 then 16:55-17:30 then 34:40-35:00] it was actually about right in the key spots. It crosses the Potomac twice, skirts north of the Capital, and follows about the 'official' (too far south) C-130 path back across. This is a rough rendering at least of their full proposed path merging previous findings with new CIT witnesses Chaconas, O'Brien, Scoggins, Mineta, and Belger [36:05]:

About 20 minutes of the video is consumed by the account of the much-anticipated Charter Boat Captain – one Steve Chaconas – who describes seeing the decoy plane crossing the river from the east south of the capitol [17:30]. He felt by visual clues it was a commercial airliner, but couldn’t offer CIT anything else, not even a general color or a number of engines. [19:05-19:20]. That’s odd. Later he rambles about confusion, media misrepresentation, open questions, etc. [26:45 – 27:30] That’s useful. CIT witnesses have an uncanny penchant of making themselves useful like this. That’s odd.

They also scored a Keith Wheelhouse interview, digging for simultanaeity of “C-130” and impact as attributed to him in early reports [starts 46:25]. Radar and other data indicates the C-130 passed the area a full two minutes after, while Wheelhouse was cited as seeing it shadowing Flight 77 as if to appear as one blip on radar. This has always been one of the eyewitness mysteries – is that just confused reporting or what he really saw?

In the interview he does confirm that he saw the two planes together [48:20], but also draws the official flight path for 77 (south of the Citgo) and the U-turn attributed to the C-130 [54:07]. They finally have a clear, on-camera corroborated south path witness, and the only thing odd is the now-confirmed same-time aspect, which still contradicts all other evidence and so is still probably wrong. I’ll have to come back and analyze how they deal with all of this, but so far they hint (it seems to me) that Wheelhouse is their elusive flyover witness who for whatever reason turned it into a C-130 after it flew over.

And of course they address the white E4B with its blue stripe that they now feel the decoy was painted to resemble, to help conceal the decoy as it circled Washington a second time before the E4B showed up. (no video of either pass of course). And then the C-130 playing into Wheelhouse's possible flyover account and possibly into Chacones' possible gray 4-engine airliner passing over... Thank god for CIT to help us sort out all this confusion. There are different nuggets in there - an interview with Narayanan, etc., to which I'll have to return. Mineta's "DRA," Scoggins' 6 miles southeast er, southwest... ABC's 9:40 'plane circling the White House.' There are answers for all these, most pretty obvious and vehemently denied by CIT.

Recent revalations, like their flight path offering being physically impossible and being based on proven fraudulent eyewitness ‘interpretations’,’ left me primed to accept this new release. The feeling I get watching this case come together finally is one of liberation; it’s finally clear even to me that CIT actually stands for Comedy Improv Team. This whole thing seems not even so much disinformation, nor simple ‘conspiracy profiteering,’ but more like some long-running prank fronted with a fierce poker face and some high-minded semantics about ‘truth’ and ‘justice.’ Why should I even waste any more time on this noise pollution? Is anybody really fooled?

Optional: Graphic Representation courtesy CIT that sums up this latest effort

Tuesday, February 12, 2008

C-130 FLIGHT PATH VIDEO

C-130 FLIGHT PATH VIDEO:
NO CONTRADICTION EXCEPT WITH CIT
Adam Larson / Caustic Logic
The Frustrating Fraud
February 12 2008
update 9/8/08


I posted this at Youtube a wile back, my most ambitious video yet, almost a mini-documentary in itself. I've been hazy on the details of the C-130 at the Pentagon, but now that Citizen Investigation Team is pushing an interpretation of it to bolster their overflight path construct, I felt a need to dig in to the available data to see what truly contradicted what. Craig and Aldo believe pilot Steve O'Brien's verbal accounts contradict the radar data (fraudulent, of course) and support their witness-compilation flight path for 77, as explained at this LCF thread (comments from "Deleted User" are from me - I asked to have my LCF account closed, not realizing how drastic it would look). To understand my reasons for assembling this, it might help to read the CIT link at top and/or this post at my blog. See also this attempted discussion thread at Above Top Secret.com.

This is the result so far: a collage of all the mutually-supporting evidence of where that plane flew and where and how it interacted with Flight 77 on its way to its fate and in its pass near the Pentagon after that. I'm able to incorporate on-the-ground witness accounts, on-site video, radar animation, and O'Brien's own words and gestures, as well as some of Aldo's own spoken words. Nothing in this video contradicts the other parts.

Online Videos by Veoh.com
Page link - Veoh

To understand the video itself, especially regarding its lower-than-hoped resolution, refer to these graphics and additional notes:
This is the radar screen labeled, which is unreadable in the video. The raw radar data was released to US researcher John Farmer, and this animation created by Italian researcher Marco Bolletino, downloaded from Farmer's AAL77.com.
first frames of Anthony Tribby's amateur video of the post-attack scene, taken almost due south of impact. The smoke has not reached the top of the screen, putting this at somewhere from, say, 10-30 seconds after impact. The "UFO" I think is the C-130 emerges from behind the plume one minute and 45 seconds after this frame. It barely comes through at all in my video, and doesn't even look too good in the higher res original. The frame below is the clearest of the object, zooming in on it as 2:04.

The object is filmed from a moving position in the range shown below, ESE of the impact point, judging by passing landmarks. After being visible for 23 seconds, it disappears again behind the plume. Its overall direction of movement seems to be left-to-right (S-N) at first, curving away and departing along the rough line of sight from there (WNW). The red arc below shows the rough direction of flight, but does not attempt to re-create the exact placement or scale of the flight path. [update: any idiot who takes this as evidence of the location of the plane or the size of the arc is... an idiot. The ANC witnesses are READ as placing it right over the cemetery doing the same curve the radar shows but a few hundred feet off, and that this coincides with my curve here means nothing. I wasn't even trying to decide what it was over.
I haven't bothered downloading the special software and figuring out the raw data, but by Bolletino's animation, this is about what radar shows the C-130 doing approximately two minutes after the attack.

The departure from Andrews shown on radar is said by CIT to fatally contradict what O'Brien himself says; he flew "north and west" and had "a beautiful view" of the Capitol Mall as they crossed the Potomac on "the south side of the mall." [see links above] The departure on radar has him taking off north and then nearly west, crossing the river well south of but probably within visual range of the mall. Close enough for me. The departure shown is also a match for one of the standard patterns used at Andrews, the "Camp Springs One" departure. [explained by Boondoggled]

That wasn't even in the video, nor was this bonus, for folks marveling over the mystery plane (left) with lopsided engines captured in a photo from 9/11 and previously passed off as the C-130. Here is that plane compared to a 4-engine C-130. Like a low-resolution mirror.

Sunday, February 3, 2008

EASTMAN AND THE DECOY THEORY

LAGASSE AND EASTMAN PART 1: EASTMAN AND THE DECOY THEORY
Adam Larson / Caustic Logic
The Frustrating Fraud
January 12 2008
Last update 2/25/08


Update 2/13: I’ve made numerous edits for flow, tightened of parts that rambled, improved grammar and spelling to compensate for limited English proficiency of Lagasse, Eastmann, Desmoulins, and myself.

Intro: The North Path Star Witness
The purpose of this ambitious three-part series is to explore the roots of Sergeant William Lagasse, a Pentagon Force Protection Service dog handler, as a witness to the Pentagon attack. For those who don’t know, Lagasse is arguably the star witness of the flyover-theory-promoting video The PentaCon, produced by Citizen Investigation Team (CIT) and released early 2007. Lagasse is the most convincing of their four witnesses of the north-of-the-Citgo flight path that proves, no matter what Lagasse himself says, that the silver 757 he saw must have flown over the building instead of into it. Among their growing cast of witnesses, the good Sergeant is also the longest-running and in many ways most perplexing player of the north-path tragicomedy. He was brought to their attention, if not directly funneled to them, by controversial 9/11 researcher Dick Eastman. It was Eastman who discovered the officer in 2003 and publicized his north-of-the-Citgo account. This is a curious episode worth looking at in some detail and in context, which is where this story will begin.

The Only Way?
Yakima, Washington-based e-mail warrior and 9/11 researcher Richard “Dick” Eastman is trained in economics, and is apparently a religious man; an acquaintance has described him as a "fool in Christ" and notes his “high cost of Christian discipleship standards.” [link] Adopting a fiercely populist, libertarian, anti-N.W.O. stance, he seems excitable and is said to have gotten rather belligerent and confrontational with fellow 9/11 researchers, quickly dismissing them as complicit in the cover-up if they happen to disagree with him. Eastman is well-known to be staunchly ‘anti-Zionist,’ and sometimes accused of anti-Semitism; he’s wondered aloud, as many have, if 9/11 were a Mossad operation, but for the woes of the world he doesn’t blame all Jews, just the ‘86%’ who support Zionism [source]

I suspect there’s at least some truth to some of Eastman's broader concerns, or the ones he appeals to, and I appreciate his emphasis on grassroots, de-centralized action to fundamentally alter the way things work. But then I disagree strongly again with his ideas on waking up the masses; in a supposed farewell letter issued early 2004, he summed up 9/11 in context of his world view. What was needed was to:

“...discredit the entire ruling elite in government, big business, big finance, big law, big media, big organized crime, big defense - and there is only one way to do that to the degree necessary, only one way to discredit the entire structure so as to bring it down by instant popular demand - and that way is to expose the truth about the 9-11 black-op false-flag inside-job mass-murder frame-up - and the only way to expose the frame-up is with the evidence that shows beyond all possibility of doubt that the Pentagon was not hit by a Boeing airliner.” [emphases mine]

By this definition we’re all screwed. Luckily I also feel his assessment of our global options was wrong and there’s still hope even though an airliner did crash itself into the Pentagon. Either way, he feels his no-757 case was a serious boon to the cause of Truth and global justice – if not its only salvation.

In early 2003 evidence was more scant than it is now, and mystery flourished with Meyssan and others insisting on a missile or small drone strike. Amid the gathering din, one research piece by Eastman rose above for its ambition (three parts!) and apparent sophistication of info-mulching: What convinced me that Flight 77 was not the Killer Jet, published by the equally concerned American Patriot Friends Network. As with other no-757 impact theories, Eastman’s analysis rests heavily on the physical evidence that ‘disproves’ a 757 impact; he found the entry hole "too small to accommodate a Boeing 757 [with] a width of no more than 10 feet.” (90 feet wide in reality) He marveled at the unmarked lawn, and decided the debris evidence available at the time was ‘portable’ and so probably planted.

He also found that the famous security camera stills showed a blackish missile hidden from view but trailed by white missile exhaust (based on a common mix of errors I’ve explained here). But the key problem with the missile theories then purporting to explain these same misread ‘oddities’ was the widespread awareness of dozens of eyewitness reports of a 757 flying in that way and even impacting. Eastman was among the first to find a way to (apparently) acknowledge this class of evidence with bizarre treatment that still allowed a non-impact scenario, and the Flyover theory was born.

The Killer Jet, the Light Poles, and the Decoy
In essence his theory, at least as it stood at that point, is this: the decoy he insists on calling Flight 77, a large two-engine silver airliner painted with American Airlines standards as seen by many, flew in from the west, while a drone ‘killer jet’ came in synched, below it and from a similar angle, fired a missile, and then itself impacted the Pentagon as Flight 77 passed over and disappeared. Eastman offered “a profile of the remote-controlled killer jet,” in essence a "‘non-standard’ General Dynamics F-16 aircraft.” There were no eyewitness reports of an F-16, just one ear-witness (whom Eastman doesn’t even cite) who thought the jet sounded like one. An F-16 has a single engine centered in the rear compared to the two massive RB-211 engines under a 757’s wings. “Only one engine broke through the C-ring,” Eastman states based on something or other (actually neither engine seems to have made it that far); “The one engine is on a line from the downed lamp posts to the entry hole to the last exit hole -- indicating a single engine jet.” A Boeing as said to have done all damage and widely reported as impacting low is three times as long as an F-16 and at least thrice as massive, and thus seems a better match for the damage necessary to reach the exit hole. But if the entry hole were only ten feet across, no Boeing could have entered, so F-16 it must be.

Also take note that the five downed light poles match a 757’s wingspan of 124 feet, and know that an F-16’s wingspan is 33 feet. The accused killer doesn’t seem a candidate to take down the poles, and at first Eastman denied any were downed; “Ron Harvey says that 5 poles were downed. Ever hear that from any other source? […]I have not seen a picture of five downed poles. If there is one I would like to ask whether it was faked […] you will notice that in the picture Harvey does send that the downed poles are not shown with the Pentagon wreckage in the background. ” [link]Later he clarified “I have long acknowledged the existence of the poles as soon as I finally got my hands on an actual picture of one (Ron Harvey was not forthcoming with me at the time)" [link]

“In fact it was the pole data in contrast to the witness accounts.” Eastman continued, “that first suggested the presence of two converging aircraft paths.” In this construct, the impact/pole damage path still is attributed to the killer F-16 by the time of his 2003 piece, which explains “the light poles […were] hit by wind force concentrated in a vortex coming off the wings, rather than being hit by the aircrafts fuselage or wings, denting and fallen forward.” Yes, he thought (or said he did) that air was responsible for bending, cutting, and crimping these aluminum poles so acutely.
So his conclusion, based in part on the light poles, was of two converging flight paths, with the implausible F-16 doing the damage “while Flight 77 […] in fact flew over the building, concealed immediately from most witnesses by fire and smoke rising to the rear and by the "blend-in" environment of Reagan National [Airport],” where it ten landed. With that airstrip just a couple thousand feet behind the Pentagon, the incredibly tight loop required to reach it, according to French researcher Jean-Pierre Desmoulins, “shows how imagination can bring somebody who doesn't know physics and laws of flight to propose nonsense.” [link]

Riskus Dyslexia and the ‘South’ Path
Attack witness and skateboarding enthusiast Steve Riskus, according to his own account, was “traveling on route 27 towards 395,” which means he was headed south with the Pentagon to his left, when the airliner “crossed my path from the right,” or west, “about 100ft in front of me and crashed into the pentagon.” Within seconds he was out of his car and taking photos of the scene, revealing his excellent view. “I could see the "American Airlines" logo on the tail as it headed towards the building,“ his seminal account clarifies, and Eastman is quite sure Riskus saw the Boeing decoy, but he also clearly states “I saw the plane hit the building,” even though it was the killer jet that did that. “From where Riskus was, the low and level approach of the killer jet was camouflaged by the "busy" background,” Eastman concluded, so he simply presumed the flyover jet is what caused the explosion. That’s it. The core assertion of this account is disposed of quickly, the remainder free to pilfer.

Riskus’ scene photos reveal his approximate location, across from the heliport tower just north of the impact point. The graphic at left is from the text-graphic Dick Eastman used to convey his position, which looks about right except one thing – at the bottom in red are labels southwest and northwest of crash, which do not line up with his description or the evidence. The poles were south of the impact, not north, and if Riskus were south, the Pentagon would be to his right, not left. Eastman clarifies that he thinks “Witness Steve Riskus was headed north on the turnpike, south of the crash site, when he saw Flight 77 pass by.” Just imagine for a moment this guy’s compass: east is to the left of north? He has the whole area half-backwards, and it carries through into his analysis of the killer jet’s “straight northwest to southeast line” taking out the light poles “north” of Riskus, “to that final hole where the bare engine of the plane exited.”

Eastman caught the error eventually (see part II), and it does not really effect his overall findings, anyway; if we re-orient his N-S axis while keeping the E-W, the decoy would fly north of the killer jet’s path, given Riskus’ standing 100-foot measurement. This roughly gives us a flight path very north of the Citgo, over the middle of Arlington National Cemetery. This is in no way a candidate for the light pole or building damage, and would have had to have flown over. If not for the dyslexia that has him reading north as south, this is the best evidence yet for a north path and flyover, an issue that will clarify itself and come into play in the next installment. By my measurements, the official 77 path/Killer Jet path would have crossed Route 27 roughly 1,000 feet ahead of Riskus, which leaves me wondering if 100 was a typo, a grossly imprecise estimate, or whatever Eastman took it for when he noted "there is no feasible path by which the killer jet could have hit those lamp posts, flown to within 100 feet of Riskus and then returned to the northwest to be able to enter at the crash point at an angle that would enable it to rendevous with the exit hole in the C-ring. No jet could do it, and especially no Boeing 757 airliner could do it." When J.P. Desmoulins looked at Riskus’ account he found that Eastman “developed this "100 ft" statement, making it one of the bases of his theory," while it seemed more likely that this number was "just an irrelevant statement" on Riskus' part, a casual and far-off estimate of an unprecedented sight.

Dividing One Plane Into Two
At one point Eastman confidently summarizes “all evidence and witness testimony presented in this paper are consistent with the [killer jet] thesis.” It’s in the use of eyewitnesses that the piece shines. It seems it was no simple task to see the patterns, and some careful prep work had to go into the process. To make 77 appear the over-passing decoy, he set about Minimizing impact accounts associated with it, as we’ve seen he dismissed Riskus as visually fooled but took a different tack with Tim Timmerman, following his cited account, which was clearly describing Flight 77, with the comment: “most significantly, he actually states that the plane he was watching "didn't appear to crash into the building"!!!!” [bold mine]. Really he said “it didn't appear to crash into the building; most of the energy was dissipated in hitting the ground, but I saw the nose break up, I saw the wings fly forward, and then the conflagration engulfed everything in flames. […] it was right before impact, and I saw the airplane just disintegrate and blow up into a huge ball of flames.” Sounds like an account he shouldn’t have cited – a ground impact and then into the building is about the opposite of a flyover Eastman feels happened, which would make this witness a liar, which would leave one wondering why he’s quoting liars. In fact, Eastman once called Timmerman and Penny Elgas “two witnesses that I believe have lied about their experience.” [source]

In all Eastman analyzes sixteen witness accounts of the plane(s), not all verified by me as free of the selectivity shown with Timmerman’s, and divides all but three of them into “two distinct groups, each seeing a different plane, on a different path, at different altitude, with different sound, at different speeds.” Some saw “an airliner, shiny, red and blue markings, with two engines, in a dive, and flying "low" in terms of one or two hundred feet, and silent (engines idle)” Others saw “a plane that came in at tree-top level, at "20 feet" all the way, hitting lamp posts in perfect low level flight […] engines roaring; pouring on speed; smaller than a mid-sized airliner.”

If we combine the two descriptions we get a composite of the one plane official story. Conversely, by fragmenting the descriptors and creating two piles he creates two jets. Here is the roster: Timmerman, Campo, Munsey, Peterson, Riskus, Robbins, and one anonymous witness saw both the decoy Flight 77 and the impact of same, but either the part where they saw it hit was removed and ignored, or they were tricked. (Robbins “saw the Boeing that did not crash and the explosion and smoke made by the killer plane that did.”). O’Keefe saw the decoy Flight 77 and heard the killer. Vaughn saw the decoy but no impact. The account Eastman shares has Joel Sucherman seeing a “large plane” that was “not going to make it across the river to National Airport” as it passed too fast for him to see “any of the horror- struck faces inside.” Yep, Sucherman saw the F-16, since it “was 20 feet off the ground” and he actually re-prints “the plane slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon.” Gaskins gives nothing Eastman uses besides altitude clues (making it 77 he saw), while Liebner’s is inconclusive for lack of altitude clues. One anonymous “falls between the two categories,” using adjectives that could describe either decoy of F-16.

That’s 14 of the 16, and the final two comprise Eastman’s third category, seeing both planes; He reports that Kelly Knowles saw “two planes moving toward the Pentagon, one veering away as the other crashed.” Actually she was miles away, and saw only the tail of one plane pass and then another also disappeared to the east “a few seconds later.” This is almost certainly the C-130 cargo transport sent to examine the scene, passing over the Pentagon about two minutes after the crash. [source] Keith Wheelhouse was at Arlington National Cemetery when, as Eastman states, he "saw another plane flying near the jet that crashed." As widely reported, one article from three days after 9/11 implied they passed at the same time; “[Wheelhouse] believes it flew directly above the American Airlines jet, as if to prevent two planes from appearing on radar, while at the same time guiding the jet toward the Pentagon.” While another article published the next day clarifies that Wheelhouse says the second plane was probably a C-130 [source, Eastman decided he saw the killer jet and the decoy.

Even as he dropped the known ID to bolster his two-plane theory, Eastman was aware of the C-130, and mentioned it once in the paper. He noted the cargo plane could have aerially planted the 757 debris indicating impact, especially the “wheel in the parking lot," as it passed "just 30 seconds later.” It is never mentioned in connection with two-planes accounts despite at least one that was quite clear on being a C-130 witness. Therefore, this graphic pretty well sums up how the killer jet theory works: [r-click, new window for full-size]

A Killer Theory… NOT
Here we have a proposition that Eastman calls “the only way” to “discredit the entire ruling elite […] to the degree necessary.” And this way, this bridge to victory offered up to support the weight of the world, is strewn with wrecked logic and supported by a teetering tower of poorly piled debris. As I have shown, the Killer Jet Theory is a laughable construct slapped together from misquoted quotes, vague words turned to hard geometry, and that geometry to ‘proof’ of something trumping hard, consistent facts. Its architecture is almost entirely of ‘errors’ too egregious to be accidental or to even be mistaken for such. Perhaps each one is a little tip-off to those paying attention that this theorizing isn’t meant to be taken seriously, a wink as he fleeces the less vigilant. A series of winks. A prolonged seizure of the eyelid.

But there are only so many so dumb, and Eastman must have been left a bit embarrassed by his own piece. The bridge was too rickety. Rescue, however, was just a few e-mails away. Already hinting at a decoy north path (if called a south path at the time) based on nearly nothing, out of nowhere a self-appointed debunker gives the only solid, clear, undeniable north path account yet – Enter William Lagasse and the next post in the series.

Wednesday, January 30, 2008

CIT'S C-130 FINDINGS RE: "FLIGHT 77"

CIT'S C-130 FINDINGS RE: "FLIGHT 77"
Adam Larson / Caustic Logic
The Frustrating Fraud
January 30 2008


Okay, so I'm banned for a week at the LCF for alluding to the well-known fact that Aldo Marquis is an asshole. [the events happen on page 8 of this thread, which is also about the C-130.] I will have more to write (and/or right) on this situation once I get some perspective. It's my first time being banned anywhere and I'm disappointed to find out my computer has been banned from allowing me to ever READ the forum, including the reason for my dismissal, or the answers CIT may or may not have offered to some questions I posed. Luckily I do have a old machine around to get around the IP block, and was barely able to read what followed. I'm not missing much it seems except continued evasion, decreased reason, argument from belligerence and incredible unchecked tirades from the CIT end. Really, some pretty insane activity from Aldo; it's like he wants out and has to do it the only way he knows - get banned for being to 'passionate' about 'truth' and 'justice' for people to handle.

On the other hand, Craig's response to my questions regarding witness Mrs. Hubbard were candid and useful.

But there was no response from either Aldo or Craig to these questions regarding their interpretation of the C-130 flight path and its 'actual' interaction with the fantasy flyover plane:

"Okay, I have a question about the outbound flight. Let's for a moment step back from the debate and go on the premise that your reading, north and west to just about over the capitol mall is correct, after which he describes his interaction with the plane, arcing from his left to north an then east, 10:00, 11:00 12;00 and descending. This part I agree with your reading, I think.

1) Is this graphic about right for what he saw that plane doing and about where?
2) You've mentioned reports of the plane being southeast of the capitol. Was this before or after this passage do you think?
3) Does he describe the plane as silver or white? Is this the flyover White Jet he saw or something else?
4) Do you think he may have been seen the C-130 and is mistakenly describing its flight path? (kidding)"

I'm not being facetious or anything here; I'm truly baffled by the implications of the C-130 being just west of over the mall when "Flight 77" came in ahead of them from the left, curved to their north and east, descending on the way. From what I have seen and heard so far of CIT's take, that would put the plane looping north of the capitol, at some point prior to its impact. I therefore open this post to comments from CIT if they wish to explain their findings in more detail to help us all determine the SIGNIFICANCE of this interpretation. I'll copy all relevant comments and thoughts into this post before finalizing it. If they have nothing to offer, I'm going to take this path shown above as the best available reading of their C-130 findings regarding the path of "Flight 77."

I'd like to start with the above list of questions as offered at LCF on my way out, and add one more:
5) How much time do you gather elapsed after seeing this arc before O'Brien saw the explosion? "Three phone calls later" = roughly how many minutes? (a range is fine).
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Update: After he ignored it at LCF and here, I posted these questions for Craig again in an Above Top Secret.com thread. He ignored it there as well but finally sent me an e-mail that reads as follows:
"You are dead wrong about our analysis and I refuse to discuss it in your disinfo thread at ATS or at your disinfo blog. You can wait for our new presentation scumbag.

Why do you keep intentionally spreading disinfo with your confusing ass, contradictory, deceptive ramblings? People see right through you Larson. You are blatantly deceptive. We have exposed you many times over and people do not have tolerance for your lies and spin any longer.

"The u-turn at the end is what is corroborated by eyewitness accounts, O'Brien's own account, and now also a video, taken by Anthony Tribby."

"A UFO for sure."

How can a UFO corroborate anything?

The placement of the UFO does not corroborate the RADES data anyway EVEN IF it is the C-130.

Why are you such a liar?

Why are you so dedicated to defending mass murder?

You disgust me."

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[BTW: He's lying about the video and radar not matching, and the UFO is almost certainly the C-130. See my video he's talking about yourself here.]
So I’m left feeling like I must be onto something, but having to guess at what the deception I’m accused of actually is. They had been so damn sure it was just over the mall I figured it was leading up to something, but this didn’t seem quite right. It would give us an overall flight pattern like this:
At present then my guess is they have actually placed the C-130 somewhat south of the Capitol. As Craig had earlier said, hinting at a correlation with the Charter Boat Captain on the river south of Reagan National:

"We were always stumped with how O'Brien's account didn't make sense with the 2006 NTSB flight path of AA77 until we talked with our newest witness who was on the Potomac River who reveals that the NTSB flight path is false and that the plane came from the EAST of the river and looped around north timed perfectly with the explosion at the Pentagon!"
[source]

By this mapping above, 77 was looping north and east of the C-130 to NORTH OF THE CAPITOL 'timed perfectly' with the explosion a few miles to the southwest. So I'm left guessing that after all the yammering about how the plane could ONLY be right over the Capitol, that the English language mandates it, that anyone who places it any further south is a dishonest goal-post-moving scumbag... must be qualified. Only CIT is allowed to disregard the words of O'Brien saying "north and west" and a "beautiful view of the mall" to actually be well SOUTH of the mall AFTER ALL, to match up with the loop the Charter Boat Captain describes! The special privileges Citizen researchers afford themselves.

Now I'm unaware of just where the river witness places the flight path, but it's probably not as far south as it would have to be to approach the C-130 as shown on radar. But it is obviously further south than their original 'beautiful view' would necessitate, and shows that O'Brien's account is indeed open to interpretation in CIT's mind, whereas when I had tried to say the same thing as they were INSISTING on the infallibility of that graphic, they said things like this: "Power of suggestion, up is down, left is right, north is south. Lies.” [Craig responding to an incorrect assessment of my video] Or this: "Just because you said it Adam. You can change anything at anytime and it all makes sense. You can say anything, up is down and down is up. I understand.” [Asshole Marquis, both quotes from the LCF thread linked to at top]

So I am "dead wrong" in my direct reading of the same infallible evidence CIT has provided me. So their assessment was wrong. After they insisted it couldn't be. "Up" is "down" now I guess just because they say so, even tho it was a deceptive treasonous scumbag lie at first when I said it.

Duly noted, for the record, yet again... the hypocrisy never stops.