Tuesday, July 1, 2008

POLL: WHICH IS MOVING? LIGHT OR CAR?

POLL: WHICH IS MOVING? LIGHT OR CAR?
And Solar angle analysis
July 1 2008


I'm having a hard time seeing any motion of this car, and in fact the light seems to be moving across the car. This video does use a cross-fade that isn't there, and it seems the original dimmer light remains while a brighter light shining closer to the car's front adds to and overwhelms it, holding for only one frame (action mode off, 3fps).


This is the car, in low res, sorry - a black, shiny one, and judging by its response, driven by a police or emergency responder-type, possibly off-duty. I estimate its orientation when still (a line running between the license plates) in the neighborhood of 20˚from north.


The angle of the light IS a very close match at least for the angle of light from the sun (azimuth, 113˚), just about perpendicular to the car's still position, meaning a reflection back along nearly the same line, roughly the same one camera 3 was on relative to the patrol car, and so registers a reflection pointing 'straight up." Geometrically, it all lines up, but the sun doesn't move like that. It can't be from the plane, as it happens at impact, over a second after the plane left that area. It's nowhere near a match for light angles from the impact area, so it's not the explosion that was happening then. At least not directly.

Any thoughts, anyone?
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Update: Well, looks like I've annoyed Farmer for the last time, and he hasn't the time to explain how the car is moving when it seems to not be. Because I'm an idiot I need to get a new extraction of the video to find similar flashes to this one, but the lo-res 5-min version I have contains none that I see, despite multiple cars passing the same spot. All reflect light dimly from a certain spot to a certain band on the canopy, but only this one has this bright flash. At 9:36:50 video time a dark car drives by the same area, no such effect. A 9:37:17 a white car casts a dim light all across as it passes, no single bright flash. Farmer insists the other flashes are there as other cars pass, and so I suppose they are. But I'll need to see it myself at this point.

On the other hand, I finally did vertical angle analysis based on the known solar altitude of 32˚above the horizon and it IS looking even more like sunlight after all. The tricky part of this for me was always deciding on the reflection plane incline of this unknown automobile. I'm not a car guy, but thinking in terms of a possible patrol car, I looked at a Ford Crown Victoria, which I hear is the standard model. Perspective aside, the incline angle here is about 34˚from vertical at mid-window, curving further at the top. Considering the gentle curve of the car's side panel, the angle from vertical would degrease down the side, until the near the bottom, where it would be zero at some point, and then curve inward just a bit at the bottom. We can't tell where exactly the light is reflecting from, but an incline of about 20-32˚is likely for anything in that zone.
23˚from vertical, roughly, is what's needed to bounce light from the sun up under the canopy. This is a likely incline at about door-handle-level. So this would tend to indicate, as the source, something bright and high along the same line as the one towards the sun. ie, car moving or not, both lateral and vertical analysis indicate this is just the sun after all, or a bizarre coincidence if not.

But the car really doesn't seem to move, it's already reflecting the same sort of dimmer light from a similar angle as the other cars that pass, and this lonely flash of sunlight happens right at impact when there's that bright fireball as well. So... mysteries remain, at least for me, but this not seeming direct evidence of the attack and not a core issue, I'm leaving it here. To the south end fireball light effect.

8 comments:

Caustic Logic said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bobloblaw said...

I think it's too far out there in guess land to say anything of any consequence.

Watching the video, however, I'm wondering if that's Turcios wandering into Lagasse's frame as Lagasse gets in his car and pulls out.

If you watch you can see someone on one of the south side cameras pulling what appears to be a cart. Around the time of impact you can see this person move off to the right. A few seconds later a person appears in Lagasse's camera.

It could be Turcios.

Caustic Logic said...

First comment was me being hasty, BTW. I'm in a bridge-burning mood I guess.

Thanks for commenting, Bob. I'm curious mostly if other feel that car is rolling into the light or is the light moving onto/appearing on the car? I'm a bit stumped actually, but I'm also just moving on anyway.

As for the people on cam observations - Mmmm, don't think so. I'm not sure the spot you speak of, but the person we think is probably Turcios runs into the store. See The Trouble with Turcios. He probably emerges with the small group that comes out the same door a second later. Maybe he goes north instead to the other canopy, but it'd take a few seconds. I don't think it matters. No one can show a video of him running off to the left to the mound prior to impact, that's the point... If you're curous tho, see what the interior cameras show. I can't see him, but haven't tried... meh. Boring.

Cheers, mate.

bobloblaw said...

Ok downloaded the 50meg Citgo video and I've gone through a few possibilities, but my ultimate decision comes down to two things.

1) As the car rolls to a stop, we can clearly see that sunlight is being reflected onto the ceiling of the Citgo

2) When the flash appears on the ceiling at the 9:40:38 mark there is also a significant flash on the car which has now started to move off

It would appear to me that the sunlight is being reflected from the window/paintwork of the moving car.

The light across the face of the entrace at 9:40:37 I find interesting. I think this may be a reflection of the explosion and fireball. It appears two seconds after the shadows in the Single Pump Side camera appear. It could also possibly be a reflection of sunlight from the silver AA77.

Caustic Logic said...

1) As the car rolls to a stop, we can clearly see that sunlight is being reflected onto the ceiling of the Citgo
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Yep, basically off the rear wheel well. It's not really a pinpoint reflection to the canopy, but the light is reflected above, steady, at that angle, so I think sun. I wish I knew optics better, but too late, no time now
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2) When the flash appears on the ceiling at the 9:40:38 mark there is also a significant flash on the car which has now started to move off

It would appear to me that the sunlight is being reflected from the window/paintwork of the moving car.
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Hmmm, well it's a different angle from the original "sunlight," although I've found it's at least darn close - so now I'm wondering what that steady light was. Two suns that day? A big fire just off-camera? I dunno, confused...
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The light across the face of the entrace at 9:40:37 I find interesting. I think this may be a reflection of the explosion and fireball. It appears two seconds after the shadows in the Single Pump Side camera appear. It could also possibly be a reflection of sunlight from the silver AA77.
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It lingers I've found for at least 1.5 sec, too long for a flash off a moving plane passing the sweet spot - it also pulses and fades, so it must be the fireball I think, probably direct light (1500 feet distnat is all). There is one frame that's different and could be something else (the first, where it's only light at the top), I'll explain that at some point, it's part of Farmer's thing. It's his one clue I agree with of a north path.

bobloblaw said...

I've watched it again today and I'm 100% certain it's coming from the car.

The first lot of light is coming from the rear alloy wheel. The ceiling surface is actually quite reflective. Watch the truck passing at 9:41:51 - you can see it's entire reflection on the ceiling. I think any shiny or light coloured object would be seen in the ceiling reflection as it moved past.

A bright flash is then clearly seen on the driver side rear window, which is also reflected by the ceiling. It's on both objects at the same time, and give the angle of reflection demonstrated by the moving truck at 9:41:51, and the fact that the rest of the ceiling doesn't light up, it *has* to be coming from the car.

To be honest, my first impression was that it was the reflection from the passing plane. But using a little logic and considering the layout of the station I am completely convinced it's coming from the car.

bobloblaw said...

Move along, nothing to see here :)

Caustic Logic said...

Alright, so everyone agrees the light on the ceiling is going there from the car, the question of where it was from before the car is still open. Some have thought it was from the plane, but Farmer and I agree it lines up better with the sun, and I note it comes after the moment of impact. IMO it's either direct sunlight or an indirect reflection of the fireball, but the altitude angles seem to say it'd have to be from up in the air...

So in short, I'm a bit confused, but like Farmer I think it's a side-point, and as you say "Move along, nothing to see here." I was annoyed by my bafflement and hoping to hash it out precisely, but it wasn't easy enough, so... apologies for a drawn-out, pointless line of discussion.