Wednesday, May 28, 2008

“FLYOVER WITNESS” ROBERTS: WHEN AND WHERE?

“FLYOVER WITNESS” ROBERTS: WHEN AND WHERE?
Adam Larson / Caustic Logic
The Frustrating Fraud
May 28 2008 4pm
updates/edits: 5/29 1am


Reversals and Revisions Regarding Roberts
It’s really quite ironic how all of this is shaping up. Just two weeks ago CIT announced they finally have a flyover witness in the form of DPS officer Roosevelt Roberts (with more to be announced). In an interview with the Team (Marquis and Ranke), he described “another plane” after the explosive impact/flyover of the ‘first.’ This is taken by CIT as fitting their second-plane flyover cover story meme very well, but it was readily evident that his account requires an extremely impossible hairpin turn over the Pentagon to get to the south parking lot as he literally describes. Oh, and he describes the plane as silver, not white as CIT have decided the flyover plane was. A lot of others did too, perhaps due to ‘reflective paint.’ But anyway, Roberts saw a plane flying somewhere after the explosion.

Then another Roberts, debunker Mark (aka Gravy) quickly reached a very different conclusion, that CIT were “utterly misusing the testimony of an eyewitness in uniform in order to claim the opposite of what that man told him.” In reality, Roberts told Clout host Richard Greene, the still-unnamed officer was an ‘official path’ observer:

“The witness had a clear view of flight 77's flight path towards the building, which he describes perfectly: a silver, commercial plane, about 50 feet high, by the light poles (which are at the cloverleaf).
It would have been impossible for him to have seen a "flyover," since the wall of the Pentagon towered more than 70 feet over him and the plane would have been on the opposite side of the building.”


This indeed fits his description of the plane and its location best and would make him a south path witness; there are many others like this who are not clear enough for CIT, but hey, what is? Where it got really ironic is when a week and a day after their first airing, ‘CIT detractor’ John Farmer released his long-awaited clarification that there was a north-path flyover (?) as well as south path impact. He had been working on it for a while and called on Officer Roberts, as CIT did, as a post-explosion/impact plane witness, but in this case supporting an actual second plane:

“Add to this another DPS Officer, Roosevelt Roberts who in a 2001 audio interview claims he ran out from the loading dock near the Pentagon southern lot and saw another
plane flying low over the south lot, and there is no doubt that AAL77 was not alone.”


Farmer had been aware of this account for a while and thought of it as an account of a plane after the impact explosion. After listening to CIT’s unexpected second interview, however, he issues this update: “I have had to remove DPS Officer Roberts as a second plane witness. If his CIT follow-up interview is accurate, he most likely saw AAL77 as it came down from the Citgo area and across Route 27. His account needs further research and clarification.”

It’s an odd reversal, and perhaps more strategic than natural, but Farmer was thinking of Roberts as basically a flyover witness until CIT brandished him as a flyover witness based on new evidence that convinced Farmer to de-list him as one. How about that… Gravy, BCR, and Caustic Logic all on the same page and CIT on the other. How can one and the same set of clues be so differently read? It’s all in the where and the when, and this where CIT can help.

Where?
Roberts’ accounts (2001 and 2008) have him working security at the south parking lot loading dock. This seems to most likely indicate the large cargo facility attached to the south end of the Pentagon, just north of the main parking area south of the building. Gravy, Farmer, and I seem to be going off this same presumed location. The Citizen Researchers are less sure, of course, and seem to like the vagueness. Even after verification Marquis was left wondering if perhaps the witness “is refering to south parking on the north side of the Pentagon, near the loading docks on that side,” and ‘the lane one area’ for all he knows means “the east end of south parking,” whatever ‘south parking’ means. If CIT has any contrary evidence they can present it, but after looking around I’m fairly sure the lane one area means the west edge of the south end lot. Look at this graphic [r-click, new window for larger readable view]: Do these numbers correspond to lanes? Indeed. Note the lane numbers on north parking – 41-63, with a large and labeled “lane 64”oriented differently and running along the others. By this, lane one is furthest southwest, numbered counter-clockwise from there. Note the location of lane 10; Roberts said later in his 2001 interview (5:20) “The Defense protective services regrouped at the 395 uh, at lane 10,” which makes sense since this is near an underpass, like this other just east of there (at lane 19), where Pentagon personnel can be seen gathered just south of I-395.
When?
But this is not the main point - whatever his location, or the plane’s location or direction, the problem with this account as presented that conflicts with the “official story” is the timeline. Ranke prefaced the account’s first airing “I’ll set it up – he was in the Pentagon, and after the moment of the explosion, he was on the loading dock on the south parking lot. He’s a Pentagon police officer. He ran out to the loading dock and saw the plane continue on over the building. So this is his account just after he heard the explosion.” Marquis later clarified in response to Gravy that this witness “was inside the Pentagon and on the phone, hung up then he heard the explosion of what he thought was the "impact" of the "first plane". He then runs 7 steps out to the edge of the loading dock (he was on the east end) where he see's a silver commercial aircraft […]”
Ranke added that “the pure beauty of this flyover witness account is that everything he says about the plane happened AFTER the explosion!”

Okay, so CIT is quite clear on when (even as they’re unsure on where), but what does Roberts himself say? The record is not entirely clear. We have his partial interview by CIT in 2008 [excerpt], which says nothing about time, except implied when he says "upon impact" he stepped outside and saw “another plane.” That is, it makes some sense to presume he meant in addition to the one that just impacted. But this is not conclusively proven. We also have his 2001 LOC interview which CIT feels corroborates their take and which Farmer felt sufficient to make him a post-impact witness. However, in that record there are conflictimg timeline clues and an audio gap just in the middle of the pivotal words “As I hang up the phone [audio gap] the plane hit the building.” Interestingly, the LoC site says Roberts "talks about watching the plane before impact." I have reason to believe (which I’ll present soon) that “the plane” was NOT what he thought was Flight 77, and the building it hit was NOT the one he was at, and the “other plane” he saw was in fact Flight 77 on its way in before impact.

So, CIT: Does this sound crazy? You can feel free to share any where and when clues that shut me right down if you are able to do so. What else did he say to you to clarify that his sighting was after the ‘plane’ crash at the Pentagon?
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Transcripts for reference:

2001 LoC interview, partial:
“I stopped at the south loading dock and I relieved one [audio gap] and as I was sitting there, there was a TV that’s right there, and uh… all of a sudden the news flash came across the TV and said the World Trade Center has been bombed. And first thing that came to my mind was New York City because I’m from New York and I start thinking about my parents. I looked again, and they said that it was another plane coming on the television. And then my Sergeant, Sergeant Woolridge, Woody, he called and he said hey Rob listen, we’re going to threat con Delta. As I hang up the phone [audio gap] the plane hit the building. It all came at the same time, watching the TV, it was like, it was almost timed, for preciseness. So as I hung up the phone and I ran to the center of the dock and I looked up, and I saw another plane flying around the south parking lot. This was about like 9:12, 9:11 in the morning. And then there was dust - stuff coming from the ceiling, and you could hear people scream. So what I did was I turned around, and I drew out my weapon, I didn’t know what was going on, I thought we was being invaded, I didn’t know what was happening. So I ran back into south loading and I start forcing people out of the building.”

2008 CIT interview excerpt, complete:
Roberts: “["upon impact"?] I stepped out the little booth that I was in and the distance between that booth and the edge of that dock is about maybe only seven steps away from there so it’s just extrememly close. You could see that plane just as clear as day. Couldn’t miss it.”
Marquis: “What color was it? Do you remember?”
Roberts: “It was, to me, at that time, it looked like it was silver in color.”
Marquis: “Like silver in color, but you saw it over the south parking lot?”
Roberts: “Right. Around the lane one area and it was like banking just above the light poles like – had to be no more than 50 feet, or less than a hundred feet."
Marquis: "Wow. Are you 100% certain it was a jet, an actual jet plane?"
Roberts: “Commercial aircraft.”
Marquis: “So there was another commercial aircraft in the area as the plane hit then basically, is that what you think?"
Roberts: "Yes sir, it’s not what I think I saw it. It it was two aircraft, that’s for sure."

7 comments:

Craig said...

>>>>I have reason to believe (which I’ll present soon) that “the plane” was NOT what he thought was Flight 77, and the building it hit was NOT the one he was at, and the “other plane” he saw was in fact Flight 77 on its way in before impact.


This will be great!

The manic reactions from you and Farmer have been endless entertainment for me lately!

The only clue you get is this...

You have the beginning of our clip labeled "inaudible" when he actually says....

"Upon impact I stepped out the little booth that I was in..."

Caustic Logic said...

Well then that would be a clue, so thanks. It sounded like an incoherent mumble to me, but you guys are the experts in how to decide what people mean. Context clues I'm missing? Maybe. Lemme listen again then... 'Yeah, upon impact' sounds right, even knowing nothing else. I await hearing the sentences right before this as well to see if his story has voluntarily changed since '01 or if you're leading or distorting. Because he was clearly seeing it all on TV is his old interview. I even know what channel he was watching. This will be great.

And as far as where, Does CIT still dispute the meaning of 'Around the lane one area?' How did the plane wind up heading away southwest of him after the flyover? He has it 'leaving' in the direction the official plane came in from. I must be deceptively misreading, huh?

Caustic Logic said...

note: [inaudible] changed to ["upon impact"?]
Is it a TV impact or real? Further clues needed to be sure of what he SAID. Considering other witnesses have lied and told CIT what they wanna hear, what he actually experienced may be different.

Craig said...

You're in denial dude.

He told us the same thing he told Jennifer Brennan. That's why you are screwed with this one and why Farmer kept it covered-up until we broke the story. If he lied to us then he lied on the record to Jennifer Brennan a few weeks after the event.

Your disinfo conspiracy keeps growing and the CMH interviews make it a monster.

The ONLY plane he EVER talks about seeing in both interviews is this alleged "2nd plane" immediately after the explosion.

Perhaps he had a case of some of that "massive perspective error" that you have no problem attributing to everyone who contradicts the official story.

Frankly it doesn't matter with this one since he only witnessed the plane AFTER the explosion and he is quite clear about this.

Keep spinning while you can Larson.

Let's see if you can come up with something goofier than Farmer!

Caustic Logic said...

>>>He told us the same thing he told Jennifer Brennan.

That the 'impact' was into the WTC on the TV and he went outside @ app 9:11 am?

>>>Your disinfo conspiracy keeps growing and the CMH interviews make it a monster.

No, not yet. There are different reasons for telling you what you want to hear, IF he did so. Like to sneak a south path account in on you. Did you give him heads up CIT @ thepentacon.com wanted to talk to him, so he could see who you are and decide what to say?

>>> The ONLY plane he EVER talks about seeing in both interviews is this alleged "2nd plane" immediately after the explosion.

You sure? "they said that it was another plane coming on the television [...] As I hang up the phone [audio gap] the plane hit the building. It all came at the same time, watching the TV"

>>> Perhaps he had a case of some of that "massive perspective error" that you have no problem attributing to everyone who contradicts the official story.

No perhaps about it. And perhaps you're willing to consider it for once, since it can't fit DIRECTLY over the lot, like you'd decide he meant if it fit. But only off to the east, even though lane one is west.

Thanks for the comments.

Craig said...

You KNOW you are stretching as far as you can here as a means to delude yourself and your readers.

If he was really referring to the impact at the WTC on the tv and it was really 9:11 or 9:12 how in the hell would he see "AA77"?

And why would he be talking about dust and stuff coming from the ceiling and helping people out of the building?

His statements are irreconcilable with this fantasy scenario you are dreaming up out of desperation.

You aren't this ignorant Adam. This is deliberate obfuscation.

Caustic Logic said...

>>>You KNOW you are stretching as far as you can here

I will concede this much up-front - I don't KNOW what's up here, what channel he was watching, etc. I was 'stretching' my certainty quotient. My theory isn't a perfect fit for timeline, but there's nothing that can fit all the clues perfectly. Something's missing in any case. Maybe I'm wrong and he really did see a silver plane fly away to the southwest after the explosion at his building... Looking forward to hearing the rest of the audio when you're ready to share.